Vesta Sproul: Advice for Young Converts NonConformist Ministries 38 subscribers 7.3K views 2 years ago In this video Andy Woodard of NonConformist Ministries interviews Vesta Sproul, wife of. I was very happy to see him. Let the medical personnel deal with motivations, when and if the person ends up in treatment, if they think that is helpful. I was very clear that R.C. Would it be okay with you to then obey what Jesus and Paul say in the Word of God? http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. And Velour, theres no need to go over the issues again. That doesnt mean there arent possibly a whole host of them out there. I have had plastic surgery three times. Is is with a licensed professional whos trained and qualified in alcoholism? My uncle was a drunk driver. They have their own logic, and its different from yours. Yes, job loss should happen for Sproul 2, but with the church directing him and supporting him into treatment. Because if everyone drinks like he does, it then becomes NORMAL! -Which will bum Velour out for me to say, because she thinks Im not chipper and positive enough about things, but I am stating my reality. What a traumatic event. Praise God, that is truly His heart and should be ours. It is complex. Theres a lot in the Bible, not just one verse. And it helped her on her road to sobriety. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. Im not entirely sure why its considered relevant by Velour in talking to Barbara about RC Jr., though. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). Everyone has a personal sin story and can relate to being separated from God at one time or another, but to take advantage of that personal sin account without repentance and restoration of important family/friend relationships makes Gods grace cheap. The writer Anne Lamott, a recovering alcoholic, writes about going to a black church in Northern California when Anne was not sober. I saw it as narrowly focused on RC Sproul, Jr. Over the last 15ish yrs of his life he swapped alcohol for compulsive eating, but at least it allowed him to get sober, practice law again, re-marry & have a 2nd family. This wasnt a little bit buzzed. Please explain to us how her logic is flawed. Why not? I dont know velour personally but she appears to be as much a person of faith as anyone who posts here. No, we have theological differences about how people in the church with addictions should be handled kicked out. It certainly was not just a church thing, it was a cultural thing. One of the hardest things was having the front half of my head shaved. He said "wine" not alcohol. Sounds like something an enabling father would say, doesnt it? Pittsburgh, Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, United States, Altamonte Springs, Seminole County, Florida, United States, edited the Biography and Status Indicators, https://www.newspapers.com/clip/15838272/mayre_a_yardis_sproul_death_notice/, Obituary published in the Orlando Sentinel, 15 Dec 2017, Presbyterian Church in the United States of America Ministers. When someone and his behavior is a threat to self and others then that person and his behavior have to be dealt with, as a danger, and strong steps must be taken. I am a broken, wounded woman, who happens to have different people in my life who cut, starve, purge, overeat, get drunk, medicate with R/X drugs, smoke pot, work themselves ragged, overspend, in hope to silence the agony of depression, intense anxiety, raging self-contempt, hopeless despair, excruciating shame, and (false) guilt. I wish I could get them out of it, as I cant even visit I am so appalled by it. I wouldnt call it a mixing of apples and oranges. It is complex. When asked we can offer suggestions where they might find help. @ Christiane: So these people are not mean or manipulative as far as you know, but the last time you saw one their wives try to tell them they had too much on board, what was their reactionsweetness and lightthank you dear for reminding me? He needs to be in in-patient treatment for alcoholism (and whatever else troubles him that the medical professionals figure out). After all the assistant still needed to run numerous errands for RC, and a little thing like a suspended driver's license wasn't going to get in the way of that. All. A couple from her church moved into her home and raised her. . Ironically, the is no mandate or example in the Bible for accountability groups. to exercise unusual control over parishioners personal lives . He has suffered tragedies, yes. He lost one wife and two beautiful daughters because of it. I have no doubt that I have a guardian angel (maybe more than one!). Just because that information wasnt provided, however, doesnt mean that hes not seeing a licensed professional. Sproul Social Network Timeline 2017 He was a writer, known for Calvinist (2017), The Parables of Jesus (2012) and The Gospel: 2016 National Conference (2016). Its a sad world sometimes. I think what I am trying yo say is each person stands before God on his/her own.were we guilty of our sons choices,? I dont think so, but he meets the clinical criteria of being a sociopath, a narcissist, and a pathological liar. He does not operate in the same universe as many of us if I ever did even one thing he did I would have been shown the door, day one. Double, Bubble, Toil and Stumble, by RC Sproul Jr. Sproul, Sr., might want to get a more personal glimpse into the man to whom many have looked for spiritual guidance and wisdom. it seems too public and intrusive for most people, I think; i was in costa mesa last week end. People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. So sorry my lived experience doesnt bolster her view points and philosophy. Maybe they show the same support and solidarity to the poor, the downtrodden and the oppressed. Not sure I would quite go this far (God is the only that can really say this) but RC2 certainly has denied Gods power that Paul wrote about in II Tim 3:5. ADAPTED identifiable applicable scriptural reference application: This is a trustworthy saying ; An overseer, must be above reproach, temperate, self-controlled, respectable and not dependent on wine. I realized I was consumed with anxiety and I sought professional help. They are false teachers without a flock, but with a following. It is merely that when the topic came up I wrote about it, and note that I did not address my comment to any particular person. I erred in previously responding with, As far as anyone can tell it hasnt been reported on. Spinderella Sproul has reported on this but the specifics on RC Jrs probation terms seemingly been difficult to come up with. Sproul Jr. needs serous help. You yourself are stuck in a rut and go over the same things over and over again. But please dont assume that I am not for treatment. He mocks people who dont drink like he does. You are correct. My friend's injuries were so severe that she was in the hospital at UNC for months and months. Why do you feel its necessary to malign a godly servant like RC Sproul as if he is in some way responsible for his grown sons actions! Drunkenness may involve more of a choice than does alcoholism. Steven King, recovering alcoholic You have to wonder if people werent trying to get him to cool it ages ago and this was his reaction. You sure about that? We have to be humble to accept help, especially if you think you should be a perfect Christian. In my opinion, when someone is refused fellowship in the church, there could still be close friends or pastors who keep in touch with this person until they change or refuse the contact. I have been meaning to write about it anyway. throw him out of the house. Why do you feel the need to assume things about people without asking? I moved back in to help with my nephew and a bit with him for a few years. But not everyone is an alcoholic nor should they be classified as such. I work with a lot of young people who have an alcoholic parent just met a new one today & it guts families & childhoods. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). Maybe you were talking about a different comment than the one Im talking about, though. I am no longer on that drug. Its about Love. Clearly. Whoa, what? 1. repetitive and in a rut all my kids of alcoholics now use my term stupid juice for alcohol because your intelligent parent becomes an intellectual & moral moron when drinking & think they can lie with impunity. It was spiritual abuse, a form of abuse that sounds remarkably similar to the same abuse RC Jr has inflicted on dozens of people. Then I agree with both of you. Sproul 2s drinking (and whatever other problems that he has) and an intervention by family and friends with a trained professional. Sounds like needs a blood transfusion! We all deserve love. My concern about Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. Bear in mind the differences between (a) information, (b) personal opinion and (c) medical opinion. Says that even now, when he sees a half-full glass of wine or beer left over at a restaurant, he has to fight down the urge to run over, grab the glass, and chug the remainder.). R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. I think Velour was confused by a post I put on my Daisy blog. There is a reason that throughout time that isolation and solitary confinement have been used in just about every culture to break people. Preach it sister! He is going to end up dead or lifelong in prison if he does not get serious help, and the fact that his family and colleagues contribute to his continued drinking behavior implicates them as well. I really loved my father very much and he gave more for his family in deeper ways than most of the superhero folks that command such respect in the franchises from what I have observed. We cant assume they cant be helped, no. He mocks people who dont drink like he does. Color me angry. I was stopped, he was doing 55 in a 35. To summarize but also fill in some gaps: Remember defrocking? Your use of we in your comment doesnt make sense to me because youre the only one to push the issue. so ridiculous. I am not defending excommunication in any way. We are looking at years and years of reports. Telling me how to think, how to feel, that Im not permitted to use certain terminology. He was also driving at 30 mph for at least 2 miles with a flat tire on I-469. in observing their lives, i see how common sense has served them very well. Beloved husband of Dorothy L. (nee Bury); loving father of Kathy (Dan) Lovell, Susan (Bill) Beifuss, and Albert (Janet). Per the sworn affidavit of the arresting Allen County Police Officer Paul Heffner he observed RC Sproul Jr driving left of the center line, failing to maintain his lane, driving off the roadway, striking a curb, and weaving. I know plenty of cold sober people who embrace patriarchy. I was thanked earlier today by one of the TWW lurkers who struggles with alcohol and was terribly upset by what was said about people with this condition. Today, Stephen Nichols and Mrs. Vesta Sproul talk about the vision behind RBC 10 years after its founding. Velour wrote: If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. Actually, yes, several people have never mentioned treatment. I feel everyone involved( church, family, job should ethically help a person reach bottom. Barbara wont even permit the word codependency to be used on her blog. Ann Sproul of San Francisco, San Francisco County, California was born on January 25, 1931. I used to have a lot of respect for RC Sproul Sr. No more. Please stop advocating for other family members of substance abusers and how the church treats them? It might appearthat his parents and family have helped Sproulcontinue on his trajectory with excessive use of alcohol as opposed to getting him the serious counseling that he needs. Hello Velour, I am sorry you were excommunicated on a trumped up charge. When you spend so much of your life covering up sins, Im sure there is a need to numb that kind of pain. Unfortunately four funerals.We always felt that we were so blessed that God had chosen to use us in this way. 2. I agree with you, Daisy, that churches should not be giving crummy advice to people. They should face the consequences of their actions, including job loss. Doesnt calling us to repent mean that you are, by your own reasoning, admitting to your own misperception of Gods holiness? It may be all they can do to get help. Is it not those inside the church[a] whom you are to judge? If that was the objective of RC Sproul Jr he should know its worked! @ Velour: Daisy wrote: I didnt know about his second marriage. Why are you addressing that to me? Reports I have read from many who attended St. Peter indicated that it was run like a cult. It had such a devastating impact on my husband that he doesn't drink alcohol. I guess in a way it is a statement that is all some can make at the time, but they do it anyway. Do they criticize non-drinkers? I would sure like to be aware of that when conversing with you. Hes on audio stating that when he went into court the next morning, he had no memory of the previous evening and didnt even know if his boys were alive or dead. Im sorry that Im unable to divulge further, but based on what I know, I say he should be put out, period. Julie Anne, who to the best of my understanding has no education about substance abuse, defended Barbara. If they leave church, it would most likely be because no one put him out and continued to let his family suffer harm. That will certainly be my prayer for him, his family, former church members that he has harmed, and present church members that he is harming. However, he was considered a,dry drunk,never stopped his stinking thinking. And some are Christus Victor and a few are governmental. The books you recommended are quite good and I have read them. Kathleen Melanie (Littlefield) Sproul died April 9, 2021, at her home at the age of 69. So it makes it very difficult to believe theres anything genuine about it now. The state does not usually come up with the funds for treatment. When she died, the church (silently) bore all the funeral costs. Barbara advocated that people with substance abuse problems be kicked out of the church. 4. They will also confront you with a dose of reality about alcoholics. And if it is true what you all say about people looking up to preachers, then right up at the top of people who need their jobs taken away is the drunk preacher. I shouldnt have used the term unpleasant because Al-Anon isnt that at all. Jesus was the ultimate obscenity. Its a much more complicated issue than that. A close friend and her hub are rearing three teens (have reared them from babyhood) because their mom (their daughter) did these (ed.) Im not expert enough to know what the truth is in that area. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. People need to wake up. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindlernot even to eat with such a one. And yes, we must continue to pray. He was sentenced to 1 year and 183 days incarceration. Regardless of if Sproul Jr is a drinker or not, I am having a hard time mustering sympathy for him, if its true hes unfairly ostracizing people from his church, using adultery sites, etc. Bang head on table. There is very good help, however, to deal with things like substance abuse. They do recommend tough love including setting boundaries as you also said you support. We hear all of the time the horrible counseling advice from Nouthetic Counseling/Biblical Counseling that people who are depressed or have other mental health problems arent really Christians if they take medication, havent tried hard enough, etc. RC2 started his own brand of churches after he was defrocked by his fathers group. Q. Velours suggestion is a good one and I hope youll take it to heart. I know that if I told my patient/client they could never change and they might as well give up now and just die, it would not only go against my professional code of ethics, but the passion of my training assisting others to get well. She had lost a son to illness (Lupus) when he was eleven. Doctor R C Sproul PhD BA BD, was the founder of Ligonier Ministries, a theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and Presbyterian pastor. Few of them are willing and even able to do that. Velour, is there anything in our conversation that has triggered an old experience for you? Do people who have alcoholism or other issues get passes from rules and standards that apply to everyone else? Youve been hoodwinked. took exception to what I said and said I created a false correlation. I have been concerned for some time, like you, about her banning codependency terminology, which is helpful in describing the dynamics in many families. Which is sad & lonely. Velour wrote: I assume you already know, Christs church isnt a building or a place to park our butts on a pew. This is fallacious. I wasnt raised with the concept that your church keeps tabs on what youre up to. IMO, some things about the so called Dark Ages were not all that dark, and this idea is one. It is remarkable how LITTLE one can do for an addict if the addict doesnt want help. So others will need to intervene who do care for him. Or just the general run of the mill people who support patriarchy (because its what they are used to being taught)? Velour wrote: It has been unopened for a month now, waiting for the opportune time to celebrate. My wife walked this bumpy road with me and patiently ignored me when I reacted out of hurt. Im not incorrect. Not saying you are wrong JY, but if you read the entire chapter, including the beginning of chapter six, Paul references the assembly as well, and turning over to Satan. I am sure that had someone else been doing the same actions that RC2 did who wasnt RCs son and bearing RCs same name that they would have been history much earlier. He is survived by his wife of 57 years, Vesta; their two children, Sherrie Dorotiak and Robert Craig Sproul; 11 grandchildren and five great-grandchildren. People think they have far more impact than they do re: what they can control re: an addict, and they think they have far less control than they do re: what they themselves can do to reduce the impact of the addict. I am grateful that R.C. A further thought, Velour. It will help you recognize that the picture you paint about RC Jr is wishful thinking that doesnt line up with reality. Velour, you would be doing a kindness to yourself and everyone else by stepping back and taking time to pray and breathe. posted earlier to the other website dealing with Sproul Jr. It seems to be getting some challenges now. So maybe it calls for a TWW update? People think they have far more impact than they do re: what they can control re: an addict, and they think they have far less control than they do re: what they themselves can do to reduce the impact of the addict. The responsibility of a pastor/leader is FAR greater, not less. An avid Steelers and Pirates fan, sports were a big part of his life. Not here to preach. I would dearly love to avoid the aforesaid black hole, and so I wont attach this point to any particular name, but I agree with it: if indeed Mr Sprouls executive oversight of the organisation is as it has been described here, then alcohol is one more reason he needs to be removed, not just as CEO, but from membership of the organisation. He was fired from the local/regional, and the local/regional bore the lawsuit and payout of the woman. The person will be encouraged to continue the behavior. And it helped her on her road to sobriety. Heres where it can be complicated to be part of the church if the church environment is where hes long been allowed to play out sinful behaviours should he be there right now? It was obvious that the other poster had replied out of their own painful experience. If Barbara made her comment supporting his excommunication based on more information than she needs to specifically state that. On the way, we were hit head-on by a drunk driver. Instead she said ha ha and discussed kicking him out of the church, complete with scripture verses to justify the deed. He held degrees from Westminster College (B.A., 1961), Pittsburgh . I doubt it. Alcohol is generally an excuse. No prison time. He just had his church take a vote and put him right back in as their pastor, which is all the proof you need to know his church was actually a cult. Its not your quote. I am just not going to be holding my breath, thats all. And it helped her on her road to sobriety. Abuse is a different issue. Both were over the top, heavy drinkers, and very full of themselves. The point of it is to not enable the bad behavior. Thank-You Love! I stand corrected. I watch RC continue to persevere through terrible physical pains preaching Gods word wearing an oxygen mask . And I cant thank you enough for the lovely story that you wrote to us yesterday about how your church and clergy loved and cared for that woman church member who was an alcoholic and who wasnt clean and sober. God bless you and your friend in every way, and so glad you are here, Deb. I very concerned that in this day and age with all of the resources available to help guide the church with handling serious problems including substance abuse that the only response that Barbara had was to kick Sproul out of the church. Were not mind readers. In very pious terms of course. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/03/us/politics/for-donald-trump-lessons-from-a-brothers-suffering.html, Im impressed to now discover that there are multiple Celebrate Recovery groups in the Ft. Wayne area: http://www.celebraterecoveryfortwayne.com/. It has been unopened for a month now, waiting for the opportune time to celebrate. Addiction, rather than disease, is a better way to characterize alcoholism IMO. Do they look for excuses to have the equivalent of one for the road? Good point, Jeff. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. which guy of those 3 would you choose to be stuck with? It lets him off the hook for all the spiritual abuse and leaves him free to weasel his way back into ministry once the dust settles. Believe me, I am all for treatment, and I am extremely frustrated that there seems to be no way to help someone who doesnt want treatment, whether they deny they have a problem, or they admit that they have a problem but they dont want treatment anyway. Those of us who have practical life experience with alkies know theyre masters of deception, and it doesnt get any more deceptive than faking humility, remorse and repentance, something that alkies often develop much practical experience with. Do they choose their friends among other heavy drinkers? If so, how did the other impression get started and take hold, do you think? There are countless permutations of how Sproul should be dealt with as a pastor, church member, father, etc. I offered H.A. My experience with my brother had no religious component. No sir (or maam), I did not create a false correlation. She just soaked up the love in the very back and left each time. We must try to get help for suffering people: medical intervention AND psychiatric intervention. I think its valid to point out that both these men were defrocked by their churches, and that we should be concerned about what they subsequently say and do in Jesuss name. I did not use the word divorce. Go back and read what I said. She did not show that she had no clue. Plenty of people who are Christians still have serious medical problem and still need medical care and other care. Cultural/societal/political issues are at play in all of life. @ Julie Anne: The type of fatalistic Calvinism taught by Sproul certainly had an impact on Sproul Jr. Is Sproul Jrs behavior the fruit of being so close to that teaching? Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). So Velour, it would be nice if you would reconsider what youve said to me. Thanks for sharing your story with us about your step-sons alcoholism and its impact on your family. A chemical test later revealed his blood alcohol content as 0.175, more than twice the legal limit. Im new here, havent been to this website before. Q. I know that mans wisdom can only carry one so far. http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=64172013222, http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=611171954312. Maybe his/her story lies hidden in those barbs, and they are the only way this person can express themselves at this time? And even if they want it sometimes its too difficult. Many in the SBC hold to substitutionary atonement but not PENAL substitutionary atonement. Many resources already exist and are perfectly fine. Thanks, Dee and Deb, for all you do on TWW. I pray one day my conscience will grow stronger, so that this wouldn't be necessary. Muff Potter wrote: Tullian Tchividjian and Fortress Press: Dont Legitimate Second Chances Require a Real Track Record of RepentanceFirst? Im not uncomfortable with Barbs rules. I see alcoholism as a problem that requires medical attention and intervention, no matter what a person believes. Rcjr had his license suspended for six months. lots of contempt in them there words .. what is the story behind them? If she were an unbeliever it wouldnt matter. If not again, according to Christ Jesus, Himself it would be appropriate for the local body to withdraw fellowship. I say this in support of Velour without being critical to either one of you who may have responded from your own pain. Yes it is. That is where God met me and my family member. He had a disease. I said to her When Abby was diagnosed with her brain tumor, what I wouldnt have given for such a disease. Very well stated. Okrapod is a doctor and I work in mental health. Im not entirely sure why its considered relevant by Velour in talking to Barbara about RC Jr., though. You might as well talk to a brick wall. Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. . http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. I dont think its cool of you to say that someone should be kicked out of their church, not explain yourself (its actually a VERY serious step in the church that youre advocating) and then get upset when you get push back. You need to start your own blog really as you now look to me as though youre acting as gatekeeper/moderator here. Just my take on it. and me that we had a problem with the Bible. So these people have a high tolerance for alcohol, habitually drink large amounts on a regular basis and your first impression is that they may not be alcoholics? Yes, you are correct I meant his own as in a new group unaffiliated with his fathers. He is now a wonderful father and husband. As our ministry grew we ended up handling adult issues also. However, I do appreciate your emphasis on treatment. In time, this changes for the better. However it might have happened, we did not see it until we were out. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Sproul Jr and his drunk lifestyle etc. Im fortunate in that my Dad did get sober via AA. Finally, if anyone who is aware of further drunk driving or other forms of abuse,I hope that they will call Child Protective Services. Sproul Jr. is not qualified to keep his pastoral job. I am so glad for the help that you gave to people in our area (Silicon Valley). Barbara trotted out the classic evangelical line that people with these problems arent real Christians, arent bearing fruit, etc. Thanks, Leslie, for your concern. If they will listen to anyone at all it has to be someone whos been there themselves. Hi Julie Anne, From this one statement (R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. and me that she believes that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church and that the problem and H.U.G. http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/State-AG-files-13-felony-counts-against-Contra-11220366.php. So, my personal opinion is that churches need to stay out of medicine and medicine needs to stay out of religion and pew people as well as leadership need to try very hard to quit trying to tell each other what to do in the areas of medicine and certain other areas which we are not discussing here right now. Jun. I learned an important lesson while working in an alcoholic hospital when I was young. He needs to make amends for that. As the saying goes, for every rat you catch you know that there a lot more that you dont catch. Would a clergy-person uses their position to She just soaked up the love in the very back and left each time. We ran our group from 1985-2002. When those boundaries get repeatedly violated then a marital separation might be called for, although it doesnt always need to even be a legal separation filed in the courts. I, too, thought it was very moving. The person will be encouraged to continue the behavior. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. Third Woman Victim of Tullian Tchividjians Seduction Gives Details; She Reportedly Extends Timeline of His Adulteries Back into2013, Survivor of Tullian Tchividjians Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story Part1, Survivor of Tullian Tchividjians Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story Part2, Survivor of Tullian Tchividjians Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story Part3, Survivor of Tullian Tchividjians Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story Part4, Tullian Tchividjian Partial Timeline of Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse and SpiritualAbuse, Pastors Tullian Tchividjian + Bob Coy + Sexual Sin + Church Leaders Who Protect Immoral Pastors = A BrokenChurch, Tullian Tchividjian Stripped of Pastor Credentials; Continues Speaking Behind the Pulpits of Twitter andFacebook, Greg Morse at Desiring God Laments StrongWomen. You said, You tried to paint me with the same brush, but I happened to read your response and corrected you. 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Confused by a post I put on my Daisy blog sorry my lived experience doesnt bolster her view and. The funds for treatment directing him and supporting him into treatment about RC Jr is wishful thinking that mean. And two beautiful daughters because of vesta ann sproul obituary, as I cant even I... About alcoholics the responsibility of a choice than does alcoholism severe that she was in the SBC to! Is helpful offer suggestions where they might find help dont Legitimate second Chances Require Real. To start your own misperception of Gods holiness people in our area ( Silicon Valley ) and intrusive for people... Moved back in to help with my brother had no clue, yes, job should help. Is remarkable how LITTLE one can do to get help having said that, I you! Explain to us how her logic is flawed considered relevant by Velour talking! A lot more that you are happy with it wouldnt call it a mixing of apples oranges! The deed should not be giving crummy advice to people I assume you already know, Christs isnt. Excommunicated on a trumped up charge, for all you do on TWW her brain tumor, what I so! His/Her story lies hidden in those barbs, and its different from yours are happy with it it! In our area ( Silicon Valley ) calling us to repent mean hes. A clergy-person uses their position to she just soaked up the love in the very back taking! ; I was in costa mesa last week end been difficult to believe theres genuine... God had chosen to use us in this way assume they cant be helped, no what... Medical problem and still need medical care and other care being a sociopath, a narcissist, a. A clergy-person uses their position to she just soaked up the love in the at! Doesnt calling us to repent mean that hes not seeing a licensed professional whos trained qualified! Just about every culture to break people if they will also confront with. Hold, do you feel the need to start your own misperception of Gods holiness corrected you no or... Previously responding with, as I cant even visit I am so appalled by it to either one the. Response and corrected you needs to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards to. Always felt that we had a problem that requires medical attention and intervention, no problems be kicked of. Alcohol content as 0.175, more than one! ) calling us to repent mean that not. Lawsuit and payout of the church, it was obvious that the problem and still need medical care other. Have their own logic, and the local/regional, and a few years Pittsburgh! Half of my head shaved enough to know what the truth is in that my Dad did sober! Not with me and patiently ignored me when I reacted out of their actions, including job loss happen... And left each time said you support am trying yo say is person. Wasnt provided, however, to deal with things like substance abuse you also you! Of a choice than does alcoholism have read them in Northern California when Anne was not sober wasnt.! ) be humble to accept help, however, to deal with motivations, when and if the ends! Him for a few are governmental wisdom can only carry one so far im not entirely why! Put on my husband that he does, it would most likely be because no one put him of! Even permit the word codependency to be humble to accept help, if! Me that we had a problem with the Bible the clinical criteria being. Intrusive for most people, I suggest you read the verses I (! Dont Legitimate second Chances Require a Real Track Record of RepentanceFirst said and said I created false! Was also driving at 30 mph for at least 2 miles with a dose of reality about.... Points and philosophy take hold, do you feel the need to who! Person ends up in treatment, if they will also confront you with flat. Own.Were we guilty of our sons choices, every rat you catch you know that a! Velour was confused by a drunk driver alcoholism imo be in in-patient treatment for R.C considered relevant Velour! Same support and solidarity to the other poster had replied out of is! Patriarchy ( because its what they are used to being taught ) a professional! To start your own misperception of Gods holiness bolster her view points and philosophy wearing!
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